Does The Flame Blade In 5e Dmg Have Bonuses To Hit And Damage
Generally Clerics in 5E suck at dealing damage being a full caster 'support' class people generally associate with healing and buffing. A quick look at the class reveals no extra attacks, and middling weapons for the most part. They get an extra 1d8 at level 8 or wisdom modifiers to cantrips.
Due to the concentration mechanic in 5E they can't stack buff spells like they could in 3E and most of the 3E offenders have either gone or changed- example divine favor, divine power doesn't exist. Bless has been signifigantly buffed from previous editions however. However there are 4 things that have been changed that enable a cleric to in theory deal fighter level damage.
1. Spiritual weapon now has a casting time of a bonus action
2. A new spell Spiritual Guardians exists (this spell was in 4E?)
3. Cleric domains are different.
4. Non core options such as Sword Coast Adventurers Guide and 3pp material.
For the most part I will ignore 3pp, I have found some interesting domains in them but nothing that beats the options WoTC has turned up so far for cleric beat down.
The main contender to enable Clerical 5E beatdown is the spell Spiritual Guardians. It deals 3d8 damage in a 15' radius and lasts for 10 minutes a level and can be up cast into higher level spell slots (4d8 lvl 4, 5d8 lvl 5 etc). With a 10 minute duration you could potentially have it last multiple encounters or even the 6-8 encounters 5E expects in an adventuring day.
A level 5 Cleric for example could deal 1d6+ strength/dex + 3d8 damage (save for half) every round vs a Fighters 2 attacks at 1d8+ strength (likely higher than a clerics ability score). Fighters also have the option however of using a 2d6 or 1d12 weapon which only some clerics get.
At level 8 however the cleric an extra 1d8 damage (the spellcaster types like light get wisdom modifier to cantrips). Clerics can also spike dmage with spiritual weapon however for an additional 1d8+ wisdom modifier damage, while fighters get to spike damage with action surge.
At a minimum a level 8 cleric gets 1d6+1d8+3d8+ ability score damage vs a fighters 2 attacks which will generally be 1d8+ ability score minimum but probably more like 1d8+2+ability score assuming sword and board+ duellist style.
Cleric average damage 21.5+ ability score vs 21 damage (assuming 18 strength). The cleric probably has around +2 strength the fighter likely an 18 but possibly a 20. A 20 strength will get this up to 23 damage vs a likely 23.5 for a cleric, the fighter however will have a +3 bonus over the cleric. The fighter could also have a 2 handed martial weapon however which can be a 2d6 or 1d12 which is around an extra 4 damage per round.
On paper a cleric is dealing slightly more damage than a fighter if both are using sword and board, the fighter has a narrow lead with 2 handed weapon although that evaporates if the cleric has martial weapon proficiency. The fighter has an accuracy bonus of probably +2 at least (less MAD) and can spike damage higher than a cleric via action surge, a cleric using spiritual weapon and/or an upcast spiritual guardians can nova an extra 2d8+ wisdom modifier of damage however but can't do it every encounter and if you are using upcast spiritual guardians you won't have the spell slots for up cast spiritual weapon.
However it can get even better for our cleric. The above scenarios are the 'best' options for any cleric. Not all clerics are created equal when it comes to melee combat. Some do get martial weapons which eliminates one of the fighters options but 2 domains can cheats damage in other ways. Those domains are Nature and Arcana Clerics. The Nature domain gets to steal a Druid cantrip so the cleric can pick up shillelagh while the arcana cleric can take two wizard cantrips which are usually green flame blade and booming blade.
Greenflame blade can add another 1d8 damage+ wisdom modifier to the Arcana clerics damage, the nature cleric can key their attacks off wisdom and upgrade their 1d6 staff or club to a 1d8. They can also take Polearm master and use a staff.
Level 8 Arcana cleric 18 wisdom+ greenflame blade is now potentially dealing 1d6+ 4d8 spiritual guardians +1d8+4 fire damage, +2 strength, +4 wisdom modifier + another 1d8+4 damage via spiritual hammer. Put together that is 1d6+6d8+10 damage or 40.5 average damage per round using a level 4 spell slot and a level 2 spell slot. A cleric can even have 20 wisdom which brings the damage up to 43.5 damage. Mr fighter using a 2 handed weapon is dealing (at best) 2d6 +5 damage with 2 attacks a round with the option to action surge (average damage 24 er round slightly higher with rerolls on 1's combat style) Mr Cleric is out damaging Mr fighter almost 2-1.
A variant human cleric (Vuman) can also take magic initiate (Druid) and pick up shillelagh upgrading the 1d6 to a 1d8 and keying the attacks off wisdom and having a 20 wisdom. (44.5 damage).
Around about now you can start screaming broken right?
However this is a best case scenario using non core material theory crafting. Reality is about to kick Mr Cleric in the nuts. With the default array the cleric by level 8 can have 20 wisdom, and the magic initiate feat. Clerics however are a bit more MAD than fighters who are generally fine with str or dex+ con as their best two stats. The cleric assumption is also assuming that spiritual guardians has been pre cast, you can keep it up and you have the spell slot available for spiritual weapon. A cleric is going to want to have medium armor, 14 dex, 14 con and 20 wisdom. Clerics are not proficient in con saves an in a real game keeping spiritual guardians up is actually difficult with out the warcaster and/or resilient con feat. If a cleric wants to reliably keep spiritual guardians up they need both of those feats and the only way to get that is not buff wisdom to 20. Without those feats any hit on the cleric has a 35% chance of disrupting spiritual guardians. A war cleric for example can have both of those feats, heavy armor and 18 wisdom. Mr Cleric now has 16 wisdom, and 3 feats. This brings the average damage down from 44.5 to 38.5 (spiritual weapon loses 2 damage, green flame blade 2 damage, shillelagh lose 2 damage). Alternatively you could take warcaster or resilient and have 18 wisdom. With resilient you only have a 20% chance of losing the spell, resilient+ warcaster roughly cuts that in half to around 10%.
So at this point a cleric has an excellent chance of keeping up spiritual guardians via feat so why would you play a fighter? Well this build (its a good one BTW) assume the cleric is level 8 and has picked up the extra wisdom to cantrip damage, and has picked up another feat, and has the spell slots for spiritual guardians. From level 1-4 you do not have spiritual guardians available and spell slots are in very short supply for spiritual weapon. At level 5-7 you won't have all of those feats available or an 18 wisdom. Rolled stats might give you higher stats but the fighter could also roll high as well although the cleric benefits more than the fighter from better stats if rolled.
The Fighter Strikes back.
So far a single domain (arcana)with 2 or 3 feats is making Mr Fighter look like a pumpkin. A slightly less optimised cleric such as War, Nature or Tempest domain can still put up some impressive numbers however the arcana cleric gets to pick up green flame blade and key it off wisdom. These builds however are highly optimised vs a pumpkin fighter, in a featless game the cleric is going to struggle. Since feats are being used the fighter gets to use them as well along with being a Vuman. Fighters also pick up an extra ASI/feat at level 6. The cleric build also uses a specific domain or 2 to pull this off so lets pick the best fighter- Battlemaster. A Vuman fighter also gets a potential 4 feats or 1 feat/3 ASI or feat.
The fighter can have a 20 ability score and 2 feats. Since we are running an optimised cleric let have an optimised fighter and this means the -5/+10 feats AKA Great Weapon Master and sharpshooter. This leaves 1 feat left over for a feat combo so we can add crossbow expert and polearm master into the mix and see what happens. Other viable options would be dual wielding + 2 feats or sword and board + 2 feats probably shield master and sentinel but we are looking at the 2 best feat combos.
Polearm master+ Great Weapon
At the most basic level PAM+ GWM enables 3 attacks a round and since the fighter has 20 strength these attacks are 1d10+5, 1d10+5, 1d4+5 and with great weapon you might get to cleave and have 3 attacks at 1d10+5/1d10+5/1d10+5. The 1st damage is 28.5 the 2nd option is 31.5. Additionally you can take a -5 penalty to hit (the fighter has at least a +1 or +2 bonus to hit over the cleric) and gain +10 damage. This brings the damage up to +58.5 and 61.5 assuming they all hit.
However this is also boosted by an action surge which allows 2 more attacks. This can bring the damage up to +99.5 and 102.5 damage.
With a -5 penalty not all of those attacks will hit but the average AC in the 5E MM apparently is 14.5. Odds are enough of those atacks will hit to enable the fighter to deal a lot of damage. And this is not even the most optimal use of Mr Fighter. That would be the ranged option.
Mr Fighter Pt 2.
This fighter is a ranged fighter that can function fine in melee AKA have your cake and eat it. This fighter has 20 dexterity and uses a hand crossbow+ sharpshooter. Much like polearm master this enables a 3rd attack or 5 attacks wirth an acion surge, it also enables the -5/+10 feats and the archery style grants a +2 bonus to hit. IN effect you suck up a -3 penalty to hit for +10 damage per attack.
Average damage 1d6+5 X3 is 25.5, action surge is 42.5.
With sharpshooter damage jumps up to 55.5 and action 92.5.
The other consideration is also level 8 is the peak of the clerics effectiveness vs te fighter at a point in time. At level 11 the fighter gets a 3rd attack and can action surge for 7 attacks, the cleric is still dealing the same damage they were at level 8 except they can deal an extra 1d8 damage using a 5th level slot for spiritual guardians. This also assumes the cleric is in melee, at range that cleric is going to be reduced to sacred flame or a wizard cantrip (arcana cleric).
Conclusion
A well optimised Cleric under ideal conditions at certain levels can match or defeat an unoptimised fighter in damage at melee. This assumes several things however.
1. The cleric can precast spiritual guardians.
2. The cleric can keep spiritual guardians up.
3. The cleric is an Arcana cleric.
4. The cleric has the spell slots spare for spiritual guardians+spiritual weapon.
5. The cleric is in melee.
The cleric has to spend a lot of resources to do this both in feats/ASI's and spell slots and is banking everything on 1 attack to connect. Those sell slots also can not be used on other things (such as healing or whatever) and it is somewhat situational. The fighter doesn't reallyhave to try and in a real game the cleric might just be better off keeping it simple (War/life domain + resilient/warcaster+ spiritual guardians) or focus on buffing and healing and throwing the odd fireball (healer feat+warcaster/resilient+ light domain or healer feat +20 wisdom). The combo also does not switch on until level 5-8 and its situational if the cleric will have enough spell slots to enable them to keep the damage up so it is almost a nova example. This also excludes the other class features a fighter gets as well, Battlemasters can buff their own damage, champions get critical hits etc.
Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians before level 10 can often keep up or exceed a fighters damage using the same feats.
Due to the concentration mechanic in 5E they can't stack buff spells like they could in 3E and most of the 3E offenders have either gone or changed- example divine favor, divine power doesn't exist. Bless has been signifigantly buffed from previous editions however. However there are 4 things that have been changed that enable a cleric to in theory deal fighter level damage.
1. Spiritual weapon now has a casting time of a bonus action
2. A new spell Spiritual Guardians exists (this spell was in 4E?)
3. Cleric domains are different.
4. Non core options such as Sword Coast Adventurers Guide and 3pp material.
For the most part I will ignore 3pp, I have found some interesting domains in them but nothing that beats the options WoTC has turned up so far for cleric beat down.
The main contender to enable Clerical 5E beatdown is the spell Spiritual Guardians. It deals 3d8 damage in a 15' radius and lasts for 10 minutes a level and can be up cast into higher level spell slots (4d8 lvl 4, 5d8 lvl 5 etc). With a 10 minute duration you could potentially have it last multiple encounters or even the 6-8 encounters 5E expects in an adventuring day.
A level 5 Cleric for example could deal 1d6+ strength/dex + 3d8 damage (save for half) every round vs a Fighters 2 attacks at 1d8+ strength (likely higher than a clerics ability score). Fighters also have the option however of using a 2d6 or 1d12 weapon which only some clerics get.
At level 8 however the cleric an extra 1d8 damage (the spellcaster types like light get wisdom modifier to cantrips). Clerics can also spike dmage with spiritual weapon however for an additional 1d8+ wisdom modifier damage, while fighters get to spike damage with action surge.
At a minimum a level 8 cleric gets 1d6+1d8+3d8+ ability score damage vs a fighters 2 attacks which will generally be 1d8+ ability score minimum but probably more like 1d8+2+ability score assuming sword and board+ duellist style.
Cleric average damage 21.5+ ability score vs 21 damage (assuming 18 strength). The cleric probably has around +2 strength the fighter likely an 18 but possibly a 20. A 20 strength will get this up to 23 damage vs a likely 23.5 for a cleric, the fighter however will have a +3 bonus over the cleric. The fighter could also have a 2 handed martial weapon however which can be a 2d6 or 1d12 which is around an extra 4 damage per round.
On paper a cleric is dealing slightly more damage than a fighter if both are using sword and board, the fighter has a narrow lead with 2 handed weapon although that evaporates if the cleric has martial weapon proficiency. The fighter has an accuracy bonus of probably +2 at least (less MAD) and can spike damage higher than a cleric via action surge, a cleric using spiritual weapon and/or an upcast spiritual guardians can nova an extra 2d8+ wisdom modifier of damage however but can't do it every encounter and if you are using upcast spiritual guardians you won't have the spell slots for up cast spiritual weapon.
However it can get even better for our cleric. The above scenarios are the 'best' options for any cleric. Not all clerics are created equal when it comes to melee combat. Some do get martial weapons which eliminates one of the fighters options but 2 domains can cheats damage in other ways. Those domains are Nature and Arcana Clerics. The Nature domain gets to steal a Druid cantrip so the cleric can pick up shillelagh while the arcana cleric can take two wizard cantrips which are usually green flame blade and booming blade.
Greenflame blade can add another 1d8 damage+ wisdom modifier to the Arcana clerics damage, the nature cleric can key their attacks off wisdom and upgrade their 1d6 staff or club to a 1d8. They can also take Polearm master and use a staff.
Level 8 Arcana cleric 18 wisdom+ greenflame blade is now potentially dealing 1d6+ 4d8 spiritual guardians +1d8+4 fire damage, +2 strength, +4 wisdom modifier + another 1d8+4 damage via spiritual hammer. Put together that is 1d6+6d8+10 damage or 40.5 average damage per round using a level 4 spell slot and a level 2 spell slot. A cleric can even have 20 wisdom which brings the damage up to 43.5 damage. Mr fighter using a 2 handed weapon is dealing (at best) 2d6 +5 damage with 2 attacks a round with the option to action surge (average damage 24 er round slightly higher with rerolls on 1's combat style) Mr Cleric is out damaging Mr fighter almost 2-1.
A variant human cleric (Vuman) can also take magic initiate (Druid) and pick up shillelagh upgrading the 1d6 to a 1d8 and keying the attacks off wisdom and having a 20 wisdom. (44.5 damage).
Around about now you can start screaming broken right?
However this is a best case scenario using non core material theory crafting. Reality is about to kick Mr Cleric in the nuts. With the default array the cleric by level 8 can have 20 wisdom, and the magic initiate feat. Clerics however are a bit more MAD than fighters who are generally fine with str or dex+ con as their best two stats. The cleric assumption is also assuming that spiritual guardians has been pre cast, you can keep it up and you have the spell slot available for spiritual weapon. A cleric is going to want to have medium armor, 14 dex, 14 con and 20 wisdom. Clerics are not proficient in con saves an in a real game keeping spiritual guardians up is actually difficult with out the warcaster and/or resilient con feat. If a cleric wants to reliably keep spiritual guardians up they need both of those feats and the only way to get that is not buff wisdom to 20. Without those feats any hit on the cleric has a 35% chance of disrupting spiritual guardians. A war cleric for example can have both of those feats, heavy armor and 18 wisdom. Mr Cleric now has 16 wisdom, and 3 feats. This brings the average damage down from 44.5 to 38.5 (spiritual weapon loses 2 damage, green flame blade 2 damage, shillelagh lose 2 damage). Alternatively you could take warcaster or resilient and have 18 wisdom. With resilient you only have a 20% chance of losing the spell, resilient+ warcaster roughly cuts that in half to around 10%.
So at this point a cleric has an excellent chance of keeping up spiritual guardians via feat so why would you play a fighter? Well this build (its a good one BTW) assume the cleric is level 8 and has picked up the extra wisdom to cantrip damage, and has picked up another feat, and has the spell slots for spiritual guardians. From level 1-4 you do not have spiritual guardians available and spell slots are in very short supply for spiritual weapon. At level 5-7 you won't have all of those feats available or an 18 wisdom. Rolled stats might give you higher stats but the fighter could also roll high as well although the cleric benefits more than the fighter from better stats if rolled.
The Fighter Strikes back.
So far a single domain (arcana)with 2 or 3 feats is making Mr Fighter look like a pumpkin. A slightly less optimised cleric such as War, Nature or Tempest domain can still put up some impressive numbers however the arcana cleric gets to pick up green flame blade and key it off wisdom. These builds however are highly optimised vs a pumpkin fighter, in a featless game the cleric is going to struggle. Since feats are being used the fighter gets to use them as well along with being a Vuman. Fighters also pick up an extra ASI/feat at level 6. The cleric build also uses a specific domain or 2 to pull this off so lets pick the best fighter- Battlemaster. A Vuman fighter also gets a potential 4 feats or 1 feat/3 ASI or feat.
The fighter can have a 20 ability score and 2 feats. Since we are running an optimised cleric let have an optimised fighter and this means the -5/+10 feats AKA Great Weapon Master and sharpshooter. This leaves 1 feat left over for a feat combo so we can add crossbow expert and polearm master into the mix and see what happens. Other viable options would be dual wielding + 2 feats or sword and board + 2 feats probably shield master and sentinel but we are looking at the 2 best feat combos.
Polearm master+ Great Weapon
At the most basic level PAM+ GWM enables 3 attacks a round and since the fighter has 20 strength these attacks are 1d10+5, 1d10+5, 1d4+5 and with great weapon you might get to cleave and have 3 attacks at 1d10+5/1d10+5/1d10+5. The 1st damage is 28.5 the 2nd option is 31.5. Additionally you can take a -5 penalty to hit (the fighter has at least a +1 or +2 bonus to hit over the cleric) and gain +10 damage. This brings the damage up to +58.5 and 61.5 assuming they all hit.
However this is also boosted by an action surge which allows 2 more attacks. This can bring the damage up to +99.5 and 102.5 damage.
With a -5 penalty not all of those attacks will hit but the average AC in the 5E MM apparently is 14.5. Odds are enough of those atacks will hit to enable the fighter to deal a lot of damage. And this is not even the most optimal use of Mr Fighter. That would be the ranged option.
Mr Fighter Pt 2.
This fighter is a ranged fighter that can function fine in melee AKA have your cake and eat it. This fighter has 20 dexterity and uses a hand crossbow+ sharpshooter. Much like polearm master this enables a 3rd attack or 5 attacks wirth an acion surge, it also enables the -5/+10 feats and the archery style grants a +2 bonus to hit. IN effect you suck up a -3 penalty to hit for +10 damage per attack.
Average damage 1d6+5 X3 is 25.5, action surge is 42.5.
With sharpshooter damage jumps up to 55.5 and action 92.5.
The other consideration is also level 8 is the peak of the clerics effectiveness vs te fighter at a point in time. At level 11 the fighter gets a 3rd attack and can action surge for 7 attacks, the cleric is still dealing the same damage they were at level 8 except they can deal an extra 1d8 damage using a 5th level slot for spiritual guardians. This also assumes the cleric is in melee, at range that cleric is going to be reduced to sacred flame or a wizard cantrip (arcana cleric).
Conclusion
A well optimised Cleric under ideal conditions at certain levels can match or defeat an unoptimised fighter in damage at melee. This assumes several things however.
1. The cleric can precast spiritual guardians.
2. The cleric can keep spiritual guardians up.
3. The cleric is an Arcana cleric.
4. The cleric has the spell slots spare for spiritual guardians+spiritual weapon.
5. The cleric is in melee.
The cleric has to spend a lot of resources to do this both in feats/ASI's and spell slots and is banking everything on 1 attack to connect. Those sell slots also can not be used on other things (such as healing or whatever) and it is somewhat situational. The fighter doesn't reallyhave to try and in a real game the cleric might just be better off keeping it simple (War/life domain + resilient/warcaster+ spiritual guardians) or focus on buffing and healing and throwing the odd fireball (healer feat+warcaster/resilient+ light domain or healer feat +20 wisdom). The combo also does not switch on until level 5-8 and its situational if the cleric will have enough spell slots to enable them to keep the damage up so it is almost a nova example. This also excludes the other class features a fighter gets as well, Battlemasters can buff their own damage, champions get critical hits etc.
Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians before level 10 can often keep up or exceed a fighters damage using the same feats.
Also is there a way to incorporate my normal attack roll and then have the macro go off in the event of a hit? The way I have it set up now is green flame blade from my spell page having it do zero damage but adding my ability mod to the damage. I hadn't figured out how to tie that to my melee attack either. How do I figure the dice and bonuses for attack rolls and damage rolls? Ask Question Asked 3 years. Like with Green Flame Blade specifically saying that you are allowed to add your spellcasting modifier to the damage produced by the spell. Browse other questions tagged dnd-5e damage attack attack-roll or ask your own question. I'm using my Shortsword as part of the Cantrip Green Flame Blade am I correct in the following: Melee attack gets +6 to hit and damage and the flame that jumps from the blade to the other target does 6 dmg? One of my attacks rolled a 6 on my D6 for dmg and it seemed really OP that I did 18 dmg (12 to one target and 6 to the other).
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Does The Flame Blade In 5e Dmg Have Bonuses To Hit And Damage Lyrics
Critical Hit Damage (CD or ChD) determines how much damage a critical hit deals in Diablo 3. Raising this figure is a key way to increase a character's DPS, and skills and items that add to. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage +1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth. The spell does not function underwater.